Reading Time: 10 minutes
Publication Date: 15 June 2023
INTERVIEW WITH
Laura Reichen
Hometown: Curitiba, Brazil
Professional Admission: Brazil, Portugal, and Germany as a European Lawyer
Current Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Current Position: Senior International Associate, Gantenberg Dispute Experts
Table of Contents
Education
Arbroad: Hi Laura and welcome to Arbroad! Let’s start with your education. You did your undergraduate degree in Brazil at Centro Universitário Curitiba (UniCuritiba). Could you please briefly tell us about your life and experience as a law student at UniCuritiba?
Laura: In Brazil, law school takes five years, and usually when you go to university, unless you study medicine or something else that is full time, you would also do internships in parallel to your studies, and that’s what I did. I studied in the morning, so I had free afternoons, and from the second year onwards, I had already started doing internships. First, I did an internship with the public procurement sector of the court, and then I worked at the criminal prosecution. When I graduated from law school, I continued working for the prosecution for about a year. So that was basically my strike of studying law and also doing internships on the side. However, I didn’t have any arbitration experience back then.
Arbroad: Did you take up any arbitration courses when you were still doing your undergraduate degree?
Laura: Yes. In my university, we had a mandatory arbitration chair, and the professor of that chair was a coach of the Vis Moot team that at that time was one of the best – I think they reached the Round of 32. I really enjoyed his classes. And his wife was the supervisor of my law school thesis that was on international criminal law, again, not arbitration. So I was also connected to him through his wife.
Arbroad: Was it in the course of your undergraduate degree that you fell in love with public international law? We understand that you joined a moot court competition back then.
Laura: Exactly. I did the International Criminal Court Moot in The Hague. I started law school knowing that I wanted to work internationally and that I didn’t want to be a lawyer, which is a bit funny if you look at me ending up being a lawyer. The only thing that stuck with me throughout was working internationally. I was super passionate, I still am, about public international law and all its areas… e.g. human rights law, refugee law, and international criminal law. But it’s kind of hard to make a living out of those, and I thought that arbitration was a graceful solution. Actually, the professor that I mentioned, who was the husband of my supervisor, was my first professional contact in arbitration. After I had been clerking for a year with the prosecutor, I reached out to him and said something like, “Hey, I want to come and try to be a lawyer and I would love to do arbitration”. And he said, “Well, come and work!”.
At the Peace Palace, The Hague, during the 2011 ICC Moot Court competition.
Arbroad: Six years after you graduated from UniCuritiba, you pursued an LL.M. in International Dispute Resolution at Humboldt University. Why did you choose Humboldt and Germany in more general terms as your destination for the master’s program?
Laura: I already knew that I wanted to live and study abroad back when I was still doing my undergraduate degree. I considered studying in the U.S., but it was quite expensive — so this option was out of the picture. I applied and got accepted to several universities: Stockholm University, University of Vienna, Erasmus University Rotterdam, Copenhagen University and Humboldt. And then I decided – why not Germany? I had been to Germany before and I enjoyed the country. My family is originally from Switzerland, the German-speaking part of the country. So we shared some of the German culture back home. I didn’t speak German back then, but we would celebrate St. Nikolaus and would do some other small things that I always found very nice. My name is pretty German too [chuckles]. So that’s why I thought of going to Germany and that’s how I ended up in Berlin.
Arbroad: You mentioned applying to several universities for an LL.M. During that time, did you already want a career in arbitration or was it something that you just decided to try spontaneously?
Laura: I already wanted an arbitration career by the moment I started applying. I had already practiced arbitration for a year with my former professor in Brazil. I then moved to another law firm and practiced litigation with a little bit of arbitration. At that time, that’s already what I wanted to do. I considered studying both public and private law, pursuing a little bit of the academic passion and also working with what I wanted to do for a living. But as I decided to go to Berlin, I really focused on and deep-dived into arbitration.
Arbroad: At Humboldt University, quite a lot of time is devoted to learning the so-called German case-solving method (“Gutachtenstil”). Did you use it at work in Germany, or is it rather a tool for German lawyers?
Laura: I think it is useful regardless of where you go. Whether it is useful in the sense of working in Germany — I am not sure, because that’s the way of writing exams in Germany, Gutachtenstil. But that’s not necessarily what you’re going to apply in your day-to-day life in a law firm. You would use more the decision style (“Urteilsstil”). That’s not exactly what we learned at Humboldt because we learned how to write exams in the way the Germans write exams. But it doesn’t hurt.
Arbroad: Part of the Humboldt IDR LL.M. curriculum is an internship. As we know, some legal internships do not seem to be fairly compensated. Do you think this practice is reasonable or should it change?
Laura: I don’t think it’s reasonable. I think all internships should be compensated. It is work, after all. But I do see the side of the LL.M. students accepting unpaid internships, because they just might want to have experience, they just want to return home with a little bit of work experience in that market or would like to have a fair shot in the market there. Therefore, they end up accepting any offers, which are often not fair.
Arbroad: Now let’s talk about Berlin. Berlin is often ranked as one of the top European cities for students. Do you agree with that?
Laura: I agree. I couldn’t agree more! I think Berlin is amazing. If I could go back to Berlin, I probably would pack my bags tomorrow without thinking twice. It is an awesome place. It offers everything. It doesn’t really matter what you want in terms of entertainment or food – you do have everything, and it is still very accessible. It’s not exactly affordable because Berlin is getting more expensive [chuckles]. To me, it is a city where everyone belongs. It doesn’t really matter who you are, what you like, what you look like – you will fit in Berlin. It’s such a cool place, I couldn’t agree more. As an international student going to Germany or to Europe, I think there’s no better place to be than Berlin.
Arbroad: In your opinion, what are the pitfalls of studying in Germany as an international student?
Laura: Oh, the language! I think that mastering German is really hard, and it is a life-long journey. I’m still not there. Of course, now I can deal with German. I understand it, I can speak it, I can cover my back if needed. But it is still hard. And if you go a bit away from the place you are used to, the accent is different and you may have problems dealing with it. So most definitely the language is the hardest part.
Also, I think if you are from warmer places or places where you don’t have such a strong winter, that can also be really tough. It may be a pitfall because you will have the winter blues in your first couple of years in Germany.
Snowy Berlin.
Arbroad: Do you have a favorite memory about studying at Humboldt University? If so, what is it?
Laura: Oh, many. My class was very, very united, we even started the #LLMFam trend, so we would do many things together. It was cool to, for example, go to one of the student’s houses and have a Halloween party. That was really nice. We also had a Christmas potluck dinner and did the Secret Santa. It was really cool, the whole class participated. I was really good friends with the Australian students of my LL.M. batch and we would just get together and study for our exams. Everything was memorable. An amazing year.
2017-2018 IDR LL.M. batch’s potluck dinner.
2017-2018 IDR LL.M. batch (drawing by Susan Suzart).
Arbroad: It really sounds amazing. Сan you name three reasons why someone considering doing an arbitration LL.M. should choose Humboldt University over other available options?
Laura: Berlin [laughs]! I mean, that’s reason number one. Also, Humboldt has a lot of guest lecturers, and that allows you to network at a level that you won’t probably have on other LL.M. programs, where you only have your normal lectures. At Humboldt, every other week, you have practicing lawyers coming and teaching something different, and that allows you to interact more with the market. So that would be reason number two. Moreover, I think the alumni community is very united and very helpful in general. If I have any issues, I know that I can reach out to someone from the alumni and people will be willing and open to help.
Career
Arbroad: Before becoming an arbitration lawyer, you started your career as a legal clerk in the Brazilian prosecution, helping the prosecutor with patrimonial crimes, drug related crimes, and sexual crimes. What prompted you to shift from criminal litigation to commercial arbitration?
Laura: I always wanted to work internationally, as I said. Clerking for the prosecution was really good salary-wise. So that’s the main reason why I did clerkship for one year. I was just getting the money to be able to go abroad and do my LL.M. At some point, it became unfulfilling. It was super interesting, I did learn a lot, but if I had been working on international criminal law, maybe I would have stayed longer. I really liked that on the academic side – but at that time it was just not making me happy. And then I decided to be a lawyer in arbitration, and I really enjoy it.
Curitiba, Brazil.
Arbroad: What knowledge and skills, if any, that you acquired from your criminal law practice are now helping you in your arbitration career?
Laura: I’m not sure if any skills specifically help with my day-to-day career. Of course, I’ve developed the persona of a lawyer, drafting and all that you develop throughout. But funnily enough, I had one arbitration that was related to a corruption scandal that we had in Brazil. The case had some footprints of criminal charges that were brought in Brazil. We even had a Brazilian criminal expert in that case. So I was the person working on that part of the case because I knew the laws and I had the background. It was complimentary. I think there is nothing you could have done before that you would never be able to use in arbitration. Everything can be useful somehow, at some point.
Arbroad: After your stint in the Brazilian prosecution, you worked for dispute resolution law firms in Brazil and practiced arbitration, as you said. What is the most important lesson that you learned from your dispute resolution practice in Brazil that now helps you as a foreign arbitration lawyer in Germany?
Laura: Oh, I think resilience. You just have to continue looking for the right solution or trying to find a way to bring your argument. You learn that mistakes sometimes happen and the best thing you can do out of mistakes is to find a solution.
Arbroad: Immediately after your LL.M., you worked as an international lawyer at the Frankfurt office of Cleary Gottlieb. What made you decide to work in Germany instead of going back to Brazil or moving to another jurisdiction, such as Paris or London?
Laura: I always wanted to stay in Germany. When I moved here for the LL.M., my plan was to stay for at least a few years afterwards, work to gain experience in international markets abroad, ideally to stay for more. I started applying to different places to see what would work. I was pretty much open for any law-related job – I applied to law firms, as well as to start-ups for in-house counsel positions. I got a lot of no’s and at some point I got a couple of yes’s, which was crazy. Cleary Gottlieb looked really cool. I knew someone working in the São Paulo office, and we got along very well. I would also be working with this person, because Cleary Gottlieb works cross-office – they don’t work only within one office. The cases are very international, so you always have at least two offices working on them. I thought that it would be a great fit, and indeed it was.
Frankfurt, Germany.
Arbroad: Do you think it is challenging to find a job as an international arbitration lawyer here in Germany?
Laura: Definitely! It is really, really challenging. I’ve got to say that it is improving. If I compare 2018 to now, I see that many more people are being able to find at least an internship or a research assistant position. There is a shift, of course, but in terms of legal profession, Germany is still a very conservative market. And you do have the language issue that makes it harder. If you look at the statistics of the DIS, for example, the biggest chunk of arbitrations in Germany is still Germany-related. Same goes to the language, often the language of arbitration is German. The market is still very conservative, and it is hard for foreigners to assert themselves in the market. But it is shifting. It is improving. Of course, it is still hard, but very much possible.
Arbroad: We understand that Brazilian lawyers with degrees from any law faculty in Brazil may become members of the Portuguese Bar Association. Does this make your transition from working in Brazil to being a foreign lawyer in Germany easier?
Laura: That’s correct. There is a treaty between Brazil and Portugal, and if you are admitted as a lawyer in one of these two countries, you are entitled to request admission to the bar of the other country. As Portugal is an EU member, if you are a lawyer in Portugal, you can be registered in Germany or any other EU country as a European lawyer, and that also allows you to appear in court. You have almost the same rights of acting as a lawyer, as a German lawyer. So it does make it easier. However, it doesn’t mean that you are going to actually appear before the court, because, let’s be honest, how many foreigners can appear before a court in Germany, in front of a German judge, and present a case in German? Only very few of them. But it makes it easier for law firms to look at you and think that they can integrate someone who is a European lawyer in their group.
Arbroad: From your experience coming from the Global South, is it difficult for lawyers from the Global South to pursue an arbitration career in a foreign jurisdiction without an LL.M.?
Laura: It’s not impossible. I know a couple of people who did it. It’s harder not because of the lack of the LL.M. per se, but because of the lack of the networking that the LL.M. can provide. As I mentioned, you make contacts with a lot of practitioners during your LL.M., and you have your colleagues and those that came before you, and knowing people helps. If I hear that someone needs, for example, an Indian lawyer tomorrow here in Germany, I would call one of our alumni and advise him/her to apply. This networking, not only on the macro level of going to partners, but knowing those who are on your level – it makes a difference. If you’re just arriving somewhere without knowing anyone, that makes it harder. It is not about having the LL.M. or not having the LL.M., but about not having the asset of this group of people that also were in the same shoes and that can take your hand and bring you on.
Arbroad: In the course of your career as a foreign lawyer, did you ever feel like you were being treated differently by anyone for being a foreign-qualified lawyer, for not being a native German speaker, or just for being a foreigner?
Laura: Not necessarily on a daily basis, but it happens. That’s still a problem. But if I look at it very coldly without being emotional, I think it would be the same back home. If a German lawyer arrived in Brazil without speaking Portuguese fluently and decided to work in the Brazilian market, they would probably have issues as well. So, yes, it is a problem. It shouldn’t happen. But I don’t think it’s the problem of Germany in particular. It’s global. The law is still a field that is not seen as fully integrated internationally. It is different from medicine, where, if you study medicine, most likely the same things will apply no matter in which part of the world we are. But with law, there is still the understanding that each country has its own laws and you are not able to fully understand or fully apply those laws if you did not study in that jurisdiction.
Arbroad: You’re now a senior international associate at Gantenberg Dispute Experts, an international arbitration law firm. What is the one thing that you like about working in a boutique law firm that a big law cannot offer?
Laura: It’s much more hands-on, which can be good and bad. In big law, any issue that I have – there is someone taking care of it. There were cases where during the weekends, say Saturday night, I could not connect to the server, and I would just call – there would be someone in New York 24/7 taking care of these issues. And now I don’t have it. For example, today I couldn’t access our server because Vodafone was down, and that’s how it is. But it also allows you to be creative and participate in the day-to-day life of the firm and learn much more of this entrepreneurial side of the business that you will not have access to in a big structure.
Arbroad: We touched on that you have a strong interest in public international law and international criminal law. You’ve said earlier that at some point of your career, you didn’t have the same feeling about your work in criminal law, but do you see yourself handling international criminal law cases or any public international law disputes in the future?
Laura: I would love to do public international law disputes. However, with respect to international criminal law disputes – I wouldn’t say so. I have been out of that field for way too long. It would be really hard for me and probably not fair for clients, to be honest. But public international law disputes – absolutely. There are public international arbitration disputes – investment cases, state to state cases. I would absolutely love to work with those.
Arbroad: As Gantenberg Dispute Experts is located in Düsseldorf, what is one thing that makes Düsseldorf stand out from other big German cities?
Laura: Ha! Food! There is a huge Japanese community in Düsseldorf. You can find all kinds of nice Japanese restaurants there. There are several different ramen shops, and the food is delicious. There’s always a line outside. I think that’s what makes Düsseldorf stand out.
Düsseldorf, Germany.
Associations for Young Practitioners
Arbroad: You are a member of various professional organizations for arbitration practitioners: LCIA YIAG, Young ICCA, ICC YAF, Young ITA, etc. For those of our readers who are not yet a part of arbitration organizations, could you please briefly describe what general activities these organizations offer?
Laura: The activities would vary from organization to organization, but they are basically a big networking hub. For example, if you take the German one, the DIS40, they have one branch for each region in Germany and they organize events every two-three months. There would be an event there, and it’s only under 40 – maybe a bit up to 40, they are not that strict. Practitioners can get together to discuss a relevant topic. In Frankfurt, for example, apart from the more academic events, they do just get together for drinks. Every three months, there are drinks, and you get to know your community more.
Almost all of the associations you’ve mentioned also have mentorship programs. That’s a great way of getting in touch with someone that is more a partner or close to partner level. Exchange of experiences is very useful to discuss… of course, not cases, but the topics and difficulties you find in your professional career, with someone that’s not your partner, but who can look at the issue from the outside and give you guidance. I think mentorship is a great way of doing it.
The associations also organize events. I believe in Young ICCA, you are supposed to even hold a conference with your mentor if you do the mentorship. So, the organizations are different in terms of structure, but if you can join them, you should be a member of as many as possible. The majority of them are free to participate. So it’s just about getting outside and putting yourself out there.
Arbroad: Have you ever participated in a mentoring program?
Laura: Yes, I did. The DIS40 mentoring program in 2021/22, it was a great experience.
Arbroad: What was your experience like? Did you like it?
Laura: I really enjoyed it. Within the DIS program, and I think in the majority of mentorship programs, you have a mentor and you have mentee-buddies. So you don’t exchange experiences only with whoever is on the partnership level, but you also communicate with those who are closer to you in terms of experience. That’s very enriching. We have met a couple of times and discussed topics related with, for example, career development. I fully recommend it.
Arbroad: In major organizations for young arbitration lawyers, there could be hundreds of participants. What do you think are the tips to get noticed in these big professional communities?
Laura: I think it always boils down to networking. It is really hard to get noticed and known from day one. That’s not how it works. It should be a result of everyday work calls, getting to know people and then staying in touch with those that you met. And at some point, someone will remember you and then will invite you to speak at a conference or to go for lunch with someone else, and that’s when you need to get out of your comfort zone. I know that especially being a foreigner, it’s really hard to reach out to people just like, “Hey, would you like to have coffee?” This gets especially tough if you’re doing that in English and you know that they are German native speakers. But those are things you have to do. You need to get to know people. Human beings are curious. Usually, people would be open to get a coffee or go for lunch just for the sake of getting to know someone new. That really helps.
Arbroad: Could you please name one arbitration organization that in your opinion, is the most helpful for law graduates or young lawyers in terms of networking?
Laura: In Germany, for sure the DIS40.
Blitz Poll
Arbroad: Fiction or nonfiction?
Laura: Fiction.
Arbroad: Berlin, Düsseldorf or Frankfurt?
Laura: Berlin.
Arbroad: Best city in Brazil to go to for Carnival?
Laura: Oh, tough one! Rio.
Arbroad: One overlooked travel destination in Germany?
Laura: Not exactly overlooked, but I love the Rheingau region. It is beautiful, has castles, wineries and nice food. What else does one need?
Arbroad: One thing that surprised and keeps surprising you in Berlin?
Laura: The people! There is always someone different than you. I once saw a guy in the train, he was in his 70s. And all he was wearing was a black leather speedo and some chains, at noon. And no one was even looking twice – so Berlin.
Arbroad: What is your favorite free time activity?
Laura: I love cooking, taking care of my indoor plants, and painting.
Arbroad: Musical or concert?
Laura: Oh, I don’t know. I love both. Let’s say concert as I will attend a bunch this year.
Arbroad: A song that has lately been on your mind?
Laura: Let me see what I’ve listened to on Spotify… No, I don’t really have to look though. Queen. Anything from Queen. I always listen to them.
Arbroad: Where does the road lead?
Laura: The road always leads to a sunnier place.
Advice
Arbroad: What advice would you give to an arbitration lawyer wanting to move to a new jurisdiction?
Laura: Connect to people that are in this foreign jurisdiction. If you can find anyone from your home jurisdiction that may be there, too – connect. People are usually open and will be willing to exchange experiences. Every month I get a message from someone asking how to make it to Germany or what my experience at the LL.M. was or something like that. Don’t be shy. It’s really hard to get out of our own shyness, try to be out, and go to events. If you don’t speak the language – still go out there, just speak English, there will be other people who will be able to communicate with you. Of course, if you’re going to a place that has a language other than English or a language that you don’t speak at home, try to learn the basics of this language. Knowing the basics already helps a lot, and being able to deal with the language will take you far.
*The interview was conducted on 16 March 2023.